Comments on ComplexClimate: Error in OLR Model?

Hank again, The kinetic energy able to be absorbe...

2009-11-30T20:40:45.563Z

Hank again,

The kinetic energy able to be absorbed in a collision between two molecules depends on the difference in their velocities, as you implied.

Velocity is a vector so this adds a complication, but it can be ignored in a simple model.

Mark, I have several books by Atkins but I cannot...

2009-11-30T20:33:02.522Z

Mark,

I have several books by Atkins but I cannot find in any of them where it explains how to calculate the emissions from greenhouse gases. If you can find where thenplease let me know.

Hank, You wrote "... the atmosphere is compl...

2009-11-30T20:29:14.163Z

Hank,

You wrote "... the atmosphere is completely opaque at certain wavelengths, except in a few "windows" where the Earth's atmosphere is transparent."

In that case increasing CO2 is saturated and increasing CO2 cannot cause more radiation to be absorbed. In other words the greenhouse effect does not operate in the way described in the text books!

Alastair, an analogy: If you want to throw a rock...

2009-11-28T16:50:14.906Z

Alastair, an analogy:

If you want to throw a rock at a particular speed, let's say 110 miles per hour, you can

-- run 110 mph carrying the rock, and let it go

-- run 10 mph and throw the rock at 100 mph, adding leverage from the length of your arm

-- put it in your ballista, wind that up, and throw it using the energy in the twist plus the lever arm of the device.

Which forms can energy take in a greenhouse gas molecule?

Oh my, you just took the wavelength and used Planc...

2009-11-28T11:58:05.390Z

Oh my, you just took the wavelength and used Planck's constant, the speed of light, and Boltzmann's constant to convert the wavelength to a temperature. That is, well, just plain wrong. Pick up a good physical chemistry book (such as the one by Atkins) and read about the Boltzmann distribution. While you're at it, pick up a good book about spectroscopy and read about emission and absorption of light.

1 Micron = 1000 Nanometers Here is mention of a ...

2009-11-28T01:03:04.223Z

1 Micron = 1000 Nanometers

Here is mention of a technology for taking astronomical photographs in this band, from the ground.

http://www.yenra.com/infrared-telescope/

Excerpt follows:
------
"... VISIR features a unique observing mode in the mid-infrared ....
The mid-infrared spectral region extends from a few to a few tens of microns in wavelength

... the atmosphere is completely opaque at certain wavelengths, except in a few "windows" where the Earth's atmosphere is transparent.

Even in these windows, however, the sky and telescope emit radiation in the infrared ...
... Observations from the ground at wavelengths of 10 to 20 micron are particularly difficult because this is the wavelength region in which both the telescope and the atmosphere emits most strongly. In order to minimize its effect, the images shown here were made by tilting the telescope secondary mirror every few seconds (chopping) and the whole telescope every minute (nodding) so that this unwanted telescope and sky background emission could be measured and subtracted from the science images faster than it varies.

VISIR - the VLT Imager and Spectrometer in the InfraRed - is a complex multi-mode instrument designed to operate in the 10 and 20 micron atmospheric windows ... and to provide images as well as spectra .... It can sample images down to the diffraction limit of the 8.2-m Melipal telescope (0.27 arcsec at 10 micron wavelength, i.e. corresponding to a resolution of 500 m on the Moon)....
...
PR Photo 16c/04 shows the scientific first light image ....
http://www.yenra.com/infrared-telescope/infrared-telescope.jpg
... a false-color image made by combining three digital images of the intensity of the infrared emission from this region at wavelengths of 11.3 micron ..., 12.8 micron ... and 19 micron (cool dust emission).

Until now, an elegant way to avoid the problems caused by the emission and absorption of the atmosphere was to fly infrared telescopes on satellites ...."

I don't give my talk until Tuesday 30th June, ...

2009-06-25T20:05:16.021+01:00

I don't give my talk until Tuesday 30th June, so no reaction yet.

I went up in a tethered balloon in Bournemouth to 200 feet and measured the radiation from the ground with an infrared thermometer from Maplins. The temperature reading did fall off exponentially as I expected but it is hardly convincing proof.

I am still preparing my talk so I will add some evidence to it.

Either you are correct, or not. It seems sensible...

2009-06-19T23:34:35.577+01:00

Either you are correct, or not. It seems sensible. What has the reception been to this revelation?

How can it be verified? Since you are talking about 30 metres to absorb all the primary outgoing radiation a practical demonstration in a tube down a mine shaft or up a lift well does not seem too difficult to arrange.

In fact does the vertical orientation matter? A 40m long pipe on its side with a black body radiator simulating the earth's surface at one end, and a bunch of instruments to measure scattering etc positioned along the line... Expose the black body only for short periods to ensure you are getting only the absorbtion and re-radiation components before convection cuts in, etc etc.

Its important. Worth a crack!